Would Joseph Smith “Die for a Lie”?
Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, was killed by an anti-Mormon mob 167 years ago today.
As I took a few minutes this morning to ponder the story of the supposed prophet, I couldn’t help but think about the famous “Would Someone Die for a Lie?” argument, oft-used in Christian apologetics circles these days.
You can watch the above video if you don’t feel like taking my word for it, but the “Die for a Lie” argument basically goes like this:
1) All of Christianity hinges on the Jesus’ return from the dead.
2) The apostles were in a unique position to know for a fact that Jesus had risen from the dead because they had personally witnessed it.
3) If Jesus had not risen from the dead, the apostles would have known that the resurrection story was a lie.
4) The apostles were willing to die (and in at least one case, did die) for their religion.
5) The apostles surely would not have gone willingly to their deaths had they known that the resurrection was a lie.
6) So obviously, the resurrection–and therefore, Christianity–must be true.
Upon hearing this argument, one might be quick to point out that many, many people throughout human history have died for their religion. The 911 suicide bombers are a popular example, and Strobel himself addresses that argument. He agrees that willingness to die for a religious belief is not unusual. But if a person is in the position, as the apostles were, to know whether their religious beliefs are based on truth, would that person ever be willing to die for something that he knew did not happen?
Like many apologetic arguments, it’s fairly easy to poke a few holes into this one, and the blog, Debunking Christianity, does a good job of that here. But I’d like to take a minute to explore this from a slightly different angle.
Strobel says that he looked “all throughout history,” but “couldn’t find one example of anybody anywhere who knowingly and willingly died for a lie.”
How long do you suppose he looked? Five minutes? Ten, tops?
Had he spent any significant amount of time searching, Strobel surely would have come across the famous Joseph Smith, whose supposed conversations with God, Jesus, and the angel Moroni led him to find a set of mysterious golden plates (which no other person has ever seen). Smith claimed that he translated the golden plates into the Book of Mormon; a claim which, of course, kickstarted the entire Mormon religion.
Although Joseph Smith gained many followers, it certainly was not all smooth sailing for him after that. As the first president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Smith was ”besieged with dozens of unjustified lawsuits and was often in jeopardy of his life. He was poisoned, beaten, tarred, unjustly imprisoned, and once sentenced to die by firing squad.”
And it only got worse. According to JosephSmith.com,
On June 25, 1844, Governor Thomas Ford of Illinois told the state militia that Joseph and his brother Hyrum were “dangerous men” (History of the Church, 5:563) and guilty of treason. The two brothers went to Carthage, Illinois , to deliver themselves up to the “pretended requirements of the law” (Doctrine and Covenants 135:1), according to the demands of the governor. Joseph Smith said of the event, “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall be said of me—He was murdered in cold blood” (Doctrine and Covenants 135:4).
From there, Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum were put in jail. A few days later, they were shot to death by an angry mob that had overrun the place.
Now, if Joseph Smith had never been visited by God, Jesus, or Moroni, if he had never found any real golden plates, if he had known all along that the religion he founded was based on a lie–indeed, his own lie–would he really have been willing to die a martyr for Mormonism? Would he really have accepted a life of persecution and fear, complete with an early, violent end?
So, in a nutshell:
1) All of Mormonism hinges on Joseph Smith’s direct conversations with God, Jesus, and the angel Moroni.
2) Joseph Smith was in a unique position to know for a fact that God, Jesus, and Moroni had spoken to him because he had personally experienced it.
3) If Joseph Smith had not spoken with God, Jesus, and Moroni, he would have known that his story was a lie.
4) Joseph Smith was willing to endure persecution and die (and yes, he did die) for his religion.
5) Joseph Smith surely would not have gone willingly to his death had he known that his story was a lie.
6) So obviously, Joseph Smith’s story–and therefore, Mormonism–must be true.
So, Christian apologists…I guess you’ll be converting now?
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There are a couple of particulars about the Smith story that confuse the issues. I addressed a couple of them last year when I wrote this entry: http://adultonsetatheist.blogspot.com/2010/06/nauvoo-to-carthage-by-horse.html
To summarize
1) The Mob that killed JS is thought to have been mostly Mormons and ex Mormons.
2) JS had sent for his armed militia to free him when he found out he was to be imprisoned (he thought the mob was his militia at first).
3) JS was armed with a pistol.
4) Of the four men imprisoned in Carthage only JS and his brother were killed by the mob.
I did read a story once (and I’ve lost the citation) that Martin Harris (one of the three witnesses to the golden plates) had been a member of another cult before joining with JS. This cult was lead by a person who said they were Jesus. The Jesus person died from a septic wound infection they claimed would be healed by god. That is a kind of “dying for what you believe”.
One person may indeed be delusional, have a mental illness that may cause them to believe things that are untrue, or have pride as big as the moon that keeps them hanging onto their story at all costs… but 11 of the disciples were killed rather brutally. Would they ALL have been willing to die in such ways, especially as some of them died years after Jesus? 30 years later, what could cause them to remain so convinced…and so cheerful and at peace in the face of such awful circumstances? If it were not true, wouldn’t they pass on the torch and slip into retirement? Yes, we have seen suicide bombers etc die for what their beliefs are, but the apostles died for their eye witness account, not what they believed to be true, but what they claimed to have seen and touched and heard.
How do you know that 11 apostles died for their beliefs, and how do you know that recanting would have saved them? What are your sources? The way I read it, not just Joseph Smith, but his brother also died for this. People also die for lies in war, when trying to protect their comrades.
@kyli
Is the reward of religion flying under your radar? How odd, I see that often, strangely enough. So, would they all have been willing to die (or kill) in horrible ways, only then to spend an eternity in the land of happiness?
I’d say yes. And it’s hard to refute an afterlife today, so they had no chance to think otherwise in the past.
Joseph Smith did not die for claiming his faith. His death is no way in relation to how Jesus died. He was jailed for being a plain old thief and for trying to burn down a building. This was not his first run in with the law. He was also a person of fraud. He died at the hands of an angry mob because of what he did, not for what he stood for.
Some Christians are so funny. I am LDS. They need to read Celsus. Celsus was an anti Christian roman writer in the second century C.E. His writing comes to us from the arguments between him and Origen. One can compare anti Mormon writing to early Anti Christian writing when Christianity was in its infancy. In most cases you can take those early documents replace the name Jesus with Joseph Smith and it would look very similar. Early Anti Christian literature used many of the same tactics and say many of the same things. For a look at many of the similarities between modern tactics to what was written by Celsus in the second century one can read this article which goes over it.
http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/christensen-celsus-and-modern-anti-mormonism.pdf
Also I find it interesting that one thing Celsus says is that the Christians believed in an embodied God. (This is one of the reasons Mormon’s are considered Christians but according to this and other sources this is what Christians believed in the second century.)
Their were also Christians that believed in different degrees of Glory. For instance there is some writings that say Polycarp who was personal friends with the apostle John where he states that John taught him that there were different degrees of glory and that where one went was dependent on how one lived their life. This is a very Mormon doctrine as well. I mean there is no proof for Mormonism, but since Joseph Smith claimed to be restoring Christs church all one has to do is research what was believed in the first three centuries. I would argue that most Mormon beliefs can be found in some form in the first three centuries. But then again Christianity was so fractured that there were dozens and dozens of sects at that time. The belief that people have that Christianity was united in their beliefs isn’t true. At least there is no evidence for a unified Christianity. Most documents from the first century are quite sparse though.
Thanks for that Kenny. I too am LDS and have spent years studying the life of Joseph Smith. All of the claims made against him here are inaccurate-being based on hearsay rather than facts. If you’re going to accuse someone of something, make sure you’re basing it off truth. I believe not doing so is called gossiping. First of all, regardless of whether someone defends themselves, if they are killed for a cause, they are called a martyr. Joseph Smith was not killed because he was a thief (what did he steal?) or a fraud (what is the evidence here? The New York court case has been proven to be false). He was imprisoned on the charges of inciting a riot that led to the destruction of the press (which is an inaccurate portrayal drawn up to put him in jail). His death had nothing to do with the printing press, however, but was largely due to men like John C. Bennett, who was excommunicated for adultery.
Did Joseph Smith know he was going to die in advance of his claims?